Saturday, April 3, 2010

Goatboy: Rules thoughts for CSM

So as you can tell, I really like Chaos. I don't know what it is about me, but whenever I play an abstract game (something beyond my own personality or own opinions on good/evil) I always gravitate towards the evil guys. I just like the horns, the crazy looks, the conversion potential of evil jerks. It just some how fits my own aesthetic for modeling as well as "Holy Crap that is cool". So when each new Marine dex comes out and my power CSM just look sadder and sadder. Thus my push for Space Goats, Goat Angels, and whatever nonsense I come up with next to somehow let myself play with cool and new toys. So in the whole home spun rules thing, I just want to go through and tweak the CSM codex with some thoughts that might make it cooler. I don't think anyone will play with this as it is just an exercise of game writing that I like to do from time to time.

So first - lets start with HQ's.

I personally think all the CSM HQ's should be 0-1 for the codex. Who would think to let two Chaos Lords rule side by side. Or two Daemon Princes. So with that in mind, we have to make each of these choices a bit more kick ass. The CSM lord is going to follow in the lines of the Wolf Lord as I feel that is the closet representation of a true Chaos Lord out there. The Librarian will most likely fall into the Blood Angels side of things with the Daemon Prince being a mixture of Space Wolves and Blood Angels. I also want to add in a Chaplain as a Dark Apostle of sorts. But enough of that - I will list the Unit, base cost and upgrades I think would work for them.

Chaos Lord - This is the bad ass of bad asses. He should hit a squad, mess it up, and live to tell as pain rains down on them. I really want them to be something you chose, not something you pick because you want to be nicer etc.

Chaos Lord - 125pts
WS 7 BS 6 S 4 T 4 W 3 I 5 A 4 Ld 10 Sv 3+
Basic Special Rules: Eternal Warrior, Fearless

Mark Specific Upgrades:
Mark of Chaos Undivided - Any CSM squad may take any mark - 10pts
Mark of Nurgle: - +1 Toughness, FNP, Only take Mark of Nurgle/Undivided units - 25pts
Mark of Khorne - +1 Attack, Furious Charge, Only take Mark of Khorne/Undivided Units - 25pts
Mark of Slaanesh - + 1 Initiative, Offensive/Defensive Grenades, May only take Mark of Slaanesh/Undivided units - 25pts
Mark of Tzeentch - Psyker, May cast Warptime per Psychic Power, 1 Reroll per game, May only take Mark of Tzeentch/Undivided units - 25pts

Non Mark specific Weapon Upgrades
Power fist - 25pts
Power weapon - 15pts
Lightning Claw - 15pts
Daemonic Armor - 20pts - 2+ arm save
Daemonic Shield - 30pts - 3+ Inv save
Terminator Armor - 40pts - 2+ arm save, 5+ Inv Save, Powerfist, TWL Bolter, Relentless
Wings - 25pts - Cannot have wings with Terminator armor
Chaos Bike - 35pts - Cannot have a bike with Terminator armor
Personal Icon - 5pts
Combi-weapon - 10pts

Mark Specific Upgrades
Mark of Chaos Undivided
Daemonic Weapon - 25pts - D6 Attacks/roll of 1 would self, +1 Strength
Daemonic Mount - 35pts - Counts as Cavalry, +1 Wound, + 1 Toughness, + 1 Attack

Mark of Nurgle
Daemonic Weapon -25pts - D6 attacks/roll of 1 wound self, Wounds on a 2+
Cloud of Flies - 15pts - Offensive/Defensive grenades
Plague of Infestation - 25pts - All non Mark of Nurgle in combat must roll toughness test or take a wound
Nurgles Bile - 25pts - Flamer template - Wounds on a 2+ armor saves as usual
Palaquin - 35pts - +1 Toughness, +1 Attack, +1 Wound, Counts as Terminator Armor for vehicle use/movement

Mark of Khorne
Daemonic Weapon - 25pts - 2d6 Attacks/any roll of 1 wound self, +1 Strength
Hate of Khorne - 35pts - All friendly units within 6 inches gain preferred enemy
Blood Rage - 25pts - D6 extra attacks, all misses hit friendly units in combat
Roar of Khorne - 25pts - 12" 6 - Assault 4
Juggernaut of Khorne - 35pts - Counts as Cavalry, +1 Toughness, +2 Attacks, +1 Wound

Mark of Slaanesh
Daemonic Weapon - 25pts - D6 attacks/roll of 1 wound self, Wounds inflict instant death
Delight of Slaanesh - 25pts - When assaulting unit, owner must roll leadership test or every model loses an attack to min of 1
Dance for Slaanesh - 35pts - 12" Unit makes leadership test at -2, failure means unit makes 1 attack for each model versus itself
Touch of Slaanesh - 25pts - 12" Unit makes leadership test at -2 or is pinned, fearless units do not need to make test
Steed of Slaanesh - 35pts - Counst as Cavalry, +1 Initiative, +2 Attacks, +1 Wound, Hit & Run

Mark of Tzeentch
Daemonic Weapon - 25pts - 24" 6 3 Assault D6/Roll of 1 wounds self, D6 attacks/roll of 1 wound self
Second Sight - 25pts - Reroll any failed armor/inv save
Broken World - 35pts - Chaos lord and unit attached may be removed from the board and is placed anywhere on the table per deepstrike
Tough of the Mad - 25pts - Chaos lord is equipped with a psychic hood
Disc of Tzeentch - 35pts - Counts as a Jet Bike, +1 Attacks, +1 Wound, + 1 Toughness

So basically I wanted to make what we all think a Chaos Lord should be. A combat monster. I also went ahead and locked into specific Mark armies. I know they wanted everyone to buy anything they wanted, but I felt that it just wasn't very cool. If you wanted everyone you need to take Mark of Chaos Undivided. I took away Tzeentch's +1 to inv saves as I wanted a Chaos Lord to have the option for a Storm Shield variant. It makes no sense that they shouldn't have one.

Lets look at a Khorne Lord -
Chaos Lord, Mark of Khorne, Daemonic Weapon, Daemonic Shield, Daemonic Armor, Juggernaut of Khorne, Hate of Khorne - 295pts -
You get a combat monster who makes all your guys especially more killie. Of course most likely those guys will kill whatever they hit and then they are left out to get shot up. But Khorne cares not right?

I will go ahead and write up a the next HQ: Daemon Prince and from there get into the elites as well as my radical change to the troop option. I think it will be pretty neat and allow you to create a bit more interesting army. Of course no one will use this, but at least it will give me some exercise stretching my brain a bit.

Do you think this is too much? Comment away. Again this is just for fun and something goofy to do.


Big Jim said...

Now this is what a Chaos Lord should be! I like what you've done here, especially giving him Eternal Warrior.

If the balance of what you post up is this kool, I will definitely be giving the list a spin.


Heinz said...

the points balancing seems to be alright for a start.

however i'm wondering if this another level of codex creep. the customisation options are fantastic - so you can have a kickass HQ to suit every flavour of army but...

although you're paying the points, the power level of a generic list HQ seems comparable to a special character. this list is definately a step towards herohammer.

TJ Atwell said...

This is one of the Homebreww CSM ideas I have seen lately that makes sense in a GW setting. Most seem to be underpowered or quite the opposite and are just too powerful, just to satify their player.
After seeing the Space Goats in person at Adepticon, I really like the idea of running the Marine armies as "counts as" with Chaos modeling. I myself have tried to play loyalist armies many times and quit not long into the process because I just hate the boring Loyalist aesthetic.
I have been thinking of running a werewolf conversion army for Space Wolves and having them look like fallen 13th company wolves. I would probably leave them undivided, but really run hard in the Werewolf theme.
My take on the BA would be to run them as Slaaneshi themed "Immortals" with basic troops running around with death masks and six pack abs armour. Their priests could be the ones who administer the combat drugs making them FC and FNP.
Anyway, enough of the Wall-O-Text from me, great post, keep up the work of the dark gods!

Thomas aka Goatboy said...

I really wanted to make them heavily customizable without the craziness you saw from the last book. Which means everything has a place in it. I always want you to take a Chaos lord. The one we have now, is just not nearly as good as a Caster or a Daemon Prince. Thus making him rather useless overall.

So these types of set ups create characters that are useable as well as strong as they should be. Hell you should piss your pants if you fight versus a Chaos Lord heh.

Brent said...

I'm a bit surprised - in a good way.

I played around with the ideas for an hour while I was painting, and actually that proved to be a pleasant distraction, but I digress.

The rules seem fairly balanced. If you buy Daemonic Armor AND Daemonic Shield, plus whatever Mark you're digging, you'll have the start of a combat monster at a fairly steep price... as it should be.

Obviously this could use with a bit of testing, but it's a fun read. Good on you, man.

The only notes I made were:

I think the BS should be 4. I think that should be army-wide, imho. Still, 5 is plenty and on par with what's out there now. 6 is overkill.

Slaanesh shouldn't come with both grenade sets - let them buy it along with everything else. I'd actually consider +2 I for the Lord, but if you're trying to keep all the Marks the same army-wide, I understand.

Anyway, keep 'em coming.


Chumbalaya said...

I like this idea. Chaos Lords should be able to slap smurfs around.

SCs can stick with army wide buffs, generic HQs end up beaters.

Thomas aka Goatboy said...

I feel the lord should be a major component of any army. They are the ones that pull everything together etc.

The next 2 HQ options are going to Daemon Prince (Upgraded lord) and a Prophet. I want to move the Sorcerors to an Elite slot as I feel they shouldn't be a leader, more something a Chaos Lord can use. And that will bring changes to their power set etc too, as obviously spamming Lash would be too much. But I will be posting the next bit later on today.

Xenofobulus said...

First off, let me tell you this, Im an old Space-wolf fanatic, at some point i lost my old army(dont ask.)and since then, i had been wondering what army I would collect next, it then came to Dark Eldar and lately to World Eaters(Dont know if any of you guys see the red line(pun intended!)...nevertheless, I only had the 4th ed CSM codeks and hadnt been playing in a while, so I set out for collecting an all out WE here comes the point...I thenwent down to the local GW-Pusher and bought the 5th ed Codeks CSM only to find how much it really suck ass now, I am truly dissapointed to see what it has become from what it has been, I loved all the old upgrade options...and worst of all:NO BLOODTHIRSTER!!! WTF???? I have chosen to continue no matter what, and seeing this rule-set of yours kinda brings it back to where Chaos once started, I should really hope that GW at some point kicks the persons responsible for the new codex in the groin at some point as that is the most rdidiculous and fluff plastered piece of **** that ive seen in along time, ive played since 1st ed, so to see what Chaos has become...oh well...BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! I have bought 3 blood slaughterers, so im looking forward to see if they can compensate for the lack of muscle elsewhere, anyhoo:Tnx for the effort m8, inspiring, and it warms me to see im not alone on this bloody path.

Tylermenz said...

I just kinda skimmed over here, and the one thing that stood out to me was that if you had a khorne lord, you could only take khorne/undivided units.

I might suggest a more 4th ed codex approach where khorne units are unrestricted, nurgle and tzeentch units are restricted (i.e. 0-1, you must have more khorne marked units than other, etc) and you can't take slaanesh units.

I kinda feel the way it is know, if you want a khorne lord, you have to play World Eaters, or if you want a Tzeentch Lord, you need to play thousand sons. Being a World Eaters player myself, i don't particularly mind, but I can see where I wouldn't want to play a chaos lord at the cost of 3/5ths of my unit choices.


You should check out the adepticon tourney lists. Your Name Here got to the finals with a Pure Khorne CSM list. So codex CSM isn't all bad, and you can still have some flavor.

here is the link to the list:

Unknown said...

The basic lord seems a bit underpriced. A Wolf Lord with Saga of the Bear is 135 points and your chaos lord has +1 WS and +1 BS compared to him.

For 25 points more on a nurgle lord you get Feel no Pain and +1 toughness. A 3 wound, toughness 5, WS 6, feel no pain, eternal warrior for 150 points that you still have full flexibility with regards to gearing options seems more than a little over the top.

Throw him a power fist for a total of 175 points and you have something that would embarass most of the 200+ point special characters from the other codex books.

Personally I think a more general cross codex change would be in order. I don't think CSM suffer too badly against the xenos races so a more characterful rule like giving all CSM Preferred Enemy against Imperial forces would work much better.

The overriding trend in the Codexes seems to be that flexibility = power. The less flexible your army is, the more power you get to compensate. This works fine in friendly games, if for example you are fielding Blood Angels your opponent is going to be pretty certain that he will face an assault heavy force and can adjust how he chooses his army to compensate. Where this falls down though is in tournament play where you have to choose an all-comers force and then you tend to suffer against forces with a narrow focus.

The best solution to this I can come up with though is to alter the standard tournament structure and allow each player to bring up to three different army lists and choose one for each opponent just knowing what army your opponent is bringing. That change alone would shore up lots of the more flexible but less powerful lists like CSM, Eldar, SM etc. Tournaments favor armies that are one trick ponies because they are generally balanced around your opponent knowing your trick in advance and choosing an army to compensate. In a tournament though your opponent can't do that hence putting him at a disadvantage.

Thomas aka Goatboy said...

Yup I played him in the finals :).

I am going to do some change up too, I discussed this with friends etc and we can see where things could get changed around a bit. So of course this will change and flow as time goes on.

Thanks for the comment.

Death 0F Angels said...

I think chaos lords are good as is. Could definatly use the mark buffs and the mark specific upgrades though.